Discussion:
Toyota Avalon - what grade of fuel?
(too old to reply)
Jane
2008-03-13 00:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.

We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Jeff
2008-03-13 00:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
Toyota. They print a neat book called "the Owner's Manual." Not only
does it have the answer to your question, but it has a lot of important
information. You need to read it carefully.

I am quite serious about this. You bought a $30,000 piece of equipment.
You need to learn about it.
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
My car takes high octane fuel, too. But it works just as well on
regular. ;-)
Jeff
2008-03-13 00:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
Toyota. They print a neat book called "the Owner's Manual." Not only
does it have the answer to your question, but it has a lot of important
information. You need to read it carefully.
I am quite serious about this. You bought a $30,000 piece of equipment.
You need to learn about it.
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
My car takes high octane fuel, too. But it works just as well on
regular. ;-)
According to Wikipedia, the Avalon has the same engine as the ES350, but
uses regular fuel. My guess is that the ES 350 will also take regular
fuel, but will have slightly lower performance (2% less horsepower and
torque), a difference you will probably never notice.

Jeff
Jane
2008-03-13 13:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
Toyota. They print a neat book called "the Owner's Manual." Not only
does it have the answer to your question, but it has a lot of important
information. You need to read it carefully.
I am quite serious about this. You bought a $30,000 piece of equipment.
You need to learn about it.
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
My car takes high octane fuel, too. But it works just as well on
regular. ;-)
Thanks Jeff, but as I said we have a Lexus right now so I don't have
an Avalon Owners Manual.
Jeff Strickland
2008-03-13 16:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
Toyota. They print a neat book called "the Owner's Manual." Not only does
it have the answer to your question, but it has a lot of important
information. You need to read it carefully.
I am quite serious about this. You bought a $30,000 piece of equipment.
You need to learn about it.
Me thinks she is planning a change, but has not actually bought her new
Avalon yet. She wants to know if she will get any relief at the pump if she
trades the Lexus for a Toyota.



PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade. Your view
should be amended to, "my car takes premium, but I put regular in it and it
seems to work okay." That would be true.
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 21:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade.
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
Jeff Strickland
2008-03-13 21:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade.
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.

Put water in the tank for all I care, just be sure your characterization as
to how it works is your objective view of okay, not an absolute view of,
"just as well."
Jeff
2008-03-13 22:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade.
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
Put water in the tank for all I care, just be sure your characterization
as to how it works is your objective view of okay, not an absolute view
of, "just as well."
The engine (machinery part) in the Lexus 350 is almost identical to the
engine in the Toyota Avalon, which runs just fine on regular fuel. What
does that tell us?

Jeff
Jeff Strickland
2008-03-13 22:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade.
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
Put water in the tank for all I care, just be sure your characterization
as to how it works is your objective view of okay, not an absolute view
of, "just as well."
The engine (machinery part) in the Lexus 350 is almost identical to the
engine in the Toyota Avalon, which runs just fine on regular fuel. What
does that tell us?
It tells us that it runs okay. It does not tell us it runs just as well.
Jeff
2008-03-13 22:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Jeff
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
Your car might work okay on regular, but I seriously doubt it works "just as
well," or the requirement would not be for the premium grade.
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
Put water in the tank for all I care, just be sure your
characterization as to how it works is your objective view of okay,
not an absolute view of, "just as well."
The engine (machinery part) in the Lexus 350 is almost identical to
the engine in the Toyota Avalon, which runs just fine on regular fuel.
What does that tell us?
It tells us that it runs okay. It does not tell us it runs just as well.
The difference was that the Lexus had about 2% more power and 2% more
horsepower. I doubt that most Lexus and Toyota drivers would notice.

Jeff
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 22:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
At one point, Lexus made sure to point out that use of lower octane fuel
would not damage the engine.

Then one year, they took that out.

Trust me, use of lower octane fuel will not damage the engine. The car
doesn't NEED it. Marketing NEEDS it, because stupid buyers think that
higher octane fuel is "premium". And of course a "premium" car would
naturally require "premium" fuel, right?

Even though the base engine is sold in millions of Camrys.
Jeff
2008-03-13 22:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
At one point, Lexus made sure to point out that use of lower octane fuel
would not damage the engine.
Then one year, they took that out.
Trust me, use of lower octane fuel will not damage the engine. The car
doesn't NEED it. Marketing NEEDS it, because stupid buyers think that
higher octane fuel is "premium". And of course a "premium" car would
naturally require "premium" fuel, right?
Even though the base engine is sold in millions of Camrys.
It also lets them advertise a higher horsepower and torque spec.

Jeff
Mike hunt
2008-03-14 00:15:54 UTC
Permalink
You are correct, over the years many small 4cy Japanese engines were
designed to run on higher octanes as they were spun up, so that they could
advertise higher HP figures. Unfortunately spinning up an engine to gain
HP also lowers the torque curve relationship, separating the torque and HP
curves results in cars equipped with an automatic tranny being a slug when
one needs that torque to get going and maintain speed on grades. The 4cy
in a Camry is a prime example

Modern microprocessors can easily de-tune an engine by adjusting the F/A
ratio and timing to run on a lower octane fuel that for which it was
designed, however it will not run as efficiently as it will if run on the
fuel for which it was designed. When an oil company implies your car will
run better or premium fuel, they are not being disingenuous because they are
not referring to all cars, rather those designed to run on premium, not
running your 89 octane car one 93 octane

Engines designed for higher octane's can easily run satisfactorily on 87
octane fuel. Modern microprocessors can do-tune to compensate for fuels
with an octane rating lower than the 93 or 91 octane rating for which the
engine was designed to be the most efficient, as long as the result does not
cause excess pollution. At that point the check engine light might
eliminate as the O2 sensor detects insufficient O2 content. The
microprocessor does the same to run on engines that use 89 octane gasoline's
when fueled with gasoline's that contains up to 15% ethanol but the result
is fewer MPGs
Post by Jeff
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You mean, the requirement that was written by marketing people so as to
make sure the buyer knows that it must be a "premium" car because it
requires "premium" fuel?
No, the requirement that was written because the machinery "needs" it.
At one point, Lexus made sure to point out that use of lower octane fuel
would not damage the engine.
Then one year, they took that out.
Trust me, use of lower octane fuel will not damage the engine. The car
doesn't NEED it. Marketing NEEDS it, because stupid buyers think that
higher octane fuel is "premium". And of course a "premium" car would
naturally require "premium" fuel, right?
Even though the base engine is sold in millions of Camrys.
It also lets them advertise a higher horsepower and torque spec.
Jeff
Tom Obrien
2017-12-01 13:18:02 UTC
Permalink
replying to Elmo P. Shagnasty, Tom Obrien wrote:
I disagree with that line of thinking. Toyota does not sell gasoline so what
benefit is it to them if you pay more for fuel? I would think it would be the
other way around. "Yes, this is a top quality car but, it runs on regular
unleaded gasoline. BONUS!!" The manual for my 2015 Avalon states "87 octane".

--
for full context, visit http://www.motorsforum.com/toyota/toyota-avalon-what-grade-of-fuel-157902-.htm
Your Name
2017-12-01 21:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Obrien
I disagree with that line of thinking. Toyota does not sell gasoline so what
benefit is it to them if you pay more for fuel? I would think it would be the
other way around. "Yes, this is a top quality car but, it runs on regular
unleaded gasoline. BONUS!!" The manual for my 2015 Avalon states "87 octane".
It's an Avalon ... surely you should use Merlin fuel. ;-)

Yes, that does exist, although only for remote control cars:
http://merlinfuel.com/en/home_
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2017-12-08 06:18:03 UTC
Permalink
replying to Tom Obrien, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
You aren't a marketer. It is not good marketing to make people who bought a
premium product, think that their product isn't premium. You'll hear it all
the time in the car forums: "if you can't afford the service, you can't
afford the car!" People use that excuse to make themselves feel better about
having spent the money on the car to begin with. "Sure a Toyota oil change is
$40, but that Lexus oil change is $150--therefore it's better, and of course
it is, because it's a much higher level car!" People love to fool themselves,
and marketing people are in the business of helping them fool themselves so
they'll happily pay more money.

I hold by my statement that at one point, Lexus actually put it in the owner's
manual explicitly that lower grade fuel would not hurt the car. That's still
the case; they just don't write it down, that's all. The engine electronics
are designed to protect the engine.

Does the Lexus have different performance maps built into its computer, to
take advantage of higher octane fuel? Yes. But the protection systems in the
sensors and computer are all still in place. You could use Mexican piss gas
for a tankful, without damage.

In no way does Lexus want their buyers to think that their premium car uses
"ordinary" anything, from the service schedule/pricing to the gasoline.

--
for full context, visit http://www.motorsforum.com/toyota/toyota-avalon-what-grade-of-fuel-157902-.htm
Tegger
2008-03-13 01:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".

It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Different engine. Different car. Different market.

It's like the difference between Hyundai and Rolls-Royce: Low end, high
end. You don't expect the same thing from both ends at the same time.
--
Tegger
C. E. White
2008-03-13 12:36:21 UTC
Permalink
news:e2d8408a-5775-4b11-802a-
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".
It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
I don't think the OP actually owns an Avalon. It appears to me that he
owns an ES350 and wants to know if the Avalon can run on regular,
which it can. He could have determined this from a number of on line
sources. One such is http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm .
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Different engine. Different car. Different market.
Different than what? Basically just a gussied up Camry at a luxury car
price. See http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/lexus-es350/.
It's like the difference between Hyundai and Rolls-Royce: Low end, high
end. You don't expect the same thing from both ends at the same time.
Except in the case of an ES350, you can expect it to do anything a
Camry will at a 20% to 30% higher price. The Avalon is a little
different than the ES350/Camry. It has a slightly stretched passenger
compartment, but uses the same basic engine as the ES350 and the 3.5L
V6 Camry. For 2008, they all get the same 6 speed automatic
transmission. And for all practical purposes they have the same EPA
fuel economy (well actually the Lexus ES350 get 1 mpg less on the
highway, but I suspect this is because all the Lexus ES350s have "all"
the optional equipment which slightly lowers fuel economy, I suspect a
fully optioned Camry would be about the same).

I am not saying Toyota is the only company that badge engineers
moderately priced sedans into "luxury sedans" but the ES350 / Camry is
a particularly obvious case (another is the Ford Fusion / Lincoln
MKZ). I suppose there is some cachet to impressing your friends with
your "Lexus" unless they happen to know it is for all practical
purposes a Camry with slightly better interior trim (that ironically
reduces overall passenger volume compared to a Camry).

As for the original question. I am sure either car will run just fine
on regular fuel. The PCM in the Lexus is probably "tuned" to provide
optimum performance on premium fuel, but I am sure it will be able to
adjust to run on regular (with some loss in performance and fuel
economy).You need to check the fuel economy on both types. The
difference using regular could be as much as 5% less (depending on
driving style). The increase when using premium probably won't cover
the higher cost of premium, but it will certainly reduce the apparent
saving of using regular. Hard drivers are likely to see more of a
difference than gentle drivers, so that should factor into the
decision as well.

Ed
Tegger
2008-03-13 12:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
news:e2d8408a-5775-4b11-802a-
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".
It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
I don't think the OP actually owns an Avalon. It appears to me that he
owns an ES350 and wants to know if the Avalon can run on regular,
which it can. He could have determined this from a number of on line
sources. One such is http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm .
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Different engine. Different car. Different market.
Different than what? Basically just a gussied up Camry at a luxury car
price. See http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/lexus-es350/.
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.

This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the
Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
--
Tegger
JoeSpareBedroom
2008-03-13 13:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tegger
Post by C. E. White
news:e2d8408a-5775-4b11-802a-
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".
It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
I don't think the OP actually owns an Avalon. It appears to me that he
owns an ES350 and wants to know if the Avalon can run on regular,
which it can. He could have determined this from a number of on line
sources. One such is http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm .
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Different engine. Different car. Different market.
Different than what? Basically just a gussied up Camry at a luxury car
price. See http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/lexus-es350/.
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.
This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the
Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
--
Tegger
Let's settle this using real science. :-) I have a 2002 Tacoma double cab,
6-cyl auto. Black sand pearl, also known as black. Optional winter floor
mats in front. The manual says it should be happy with 87 octane gas. I go
to the same three gas stations for the most part. But occasionally, if I'm
away from my home area, I'll buy 87 octane from a no-name station, and I'll
get some knocking, and not just when I'm really getting on the gas. Just
normal acceleration. So now, if I'm buying from a dealer I'm not familiar
with, I'll buy a half a tank. If it knocks, there's room in the tank to add
some 93 octane.

Now that's science!

When I first got the truck, I was making the same 200 mile trip every couple
of weeks, all highway driving with some moderate hills. I found no
difference in mpg with different grades of fuel. If there was a performance
difference, it wasn't noticeable. I'm not drag racing. I'm just driving. I
used cruise control for the flat highways, but not in the hills, for obvious
reasons.

I sometimes tow a 1000 boat/trailer. That's about 1/3 the towing capacity of
the truck. With 87 octane, I lose 1-2 mpg on hilly roads, and nothing on
flat roads. So, for certain trips, I'll use the middle grade fuel. It's an
extra $1.60 for a tankful.
Ray O
2008-03-14 02:45:28 UTC
Permalink
"JoeSpareBedroom" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:fK9Cj.5931$***@news02.roc.ny...
<snipped>
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Let's settle this using real science. :-) I have a 2002 Tacoma double
cab, 6-cyl auto. Black sand pearl, also known as black. Optional winter
floor mats in front. The manual says it should be happy with 87 octane
gas. I go to the same three gas stations for the most part. But
occasionally, if I'm away from my home area, I'll buy 87 octane from a
no-name station, and I'll get some knocking, and not just when I'm really
getting on the gas. Just normal acceleration. So now, if I'm buying from a
dealer I'm not familiar with, I'll buy a half a tank. If it knocks,
there's room in the tank to add some 93 octane.
Now that's science!
Your Tacoma has a knock sensor, so the knocking should go away after about 3
seconds. If it continues to knock, check out the knock sensor and base
ignition timing.
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
When I first got the truck, I was making the same 200 mile trip every
couple of weeks, all highway driving with some moderate hills. I found no
difference in mpg with different grades of fuel. If there was a
performance difference, it wasn't noticeable. I'm not drag racing. I'm
just driving. I used cruise control for the flat highways, but not in the
hills, for obvious reasons.
I sometimes tow a 1000 boat/trailer. That's about 1/3 the towing capacity
of the truck. With 87 octane, I lose 1-2 mpg on hilly roads, and nothing
on flat roads. So, for certain trips, I'll use the middle grade fuel. It's
an extra $1.60 for a tankful.
In a vehicle that is programmed to use 87 octane, there will be no
performance improvement by using higher octane fuel unless there is a
problem with the engine or engine programming. Ignition timing is
programmed to advance based on engine RPM, and the ECM will retard ignition
timing if it starts getting a signal from the knock sensor. In the absence
of a signal from the knock sensor, the ignition timing will advance by its
programmed amount, so there is nothing to be gained by higher octane fuel.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 14:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tegger
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.
This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the
Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
Actually, it suggests more that the marketing people stuck their hands
into things and overrode the engineers.

The marketing people have a vested interest in the buyer thinking that
he has something "better". And as we all know, public perception is
that "premium" gas must be better because they call it "premium"--when
the only difference in most cases (except Shell) is octane rating.

Running grocery store 91 or 93 octane gas is probably worse for your ES
than running Shell 87.
C. E. White
2008-03-13 15:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Tegger
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.
This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the
Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
Actually, it suggests more that the marketing people stuck their hands
into things and overrode the engineers.
The marketing people have a vested interest in the buyer thinking that
he has something "better". And as we all know, public perception is
that "premium" gas must be better because they call it
"premium"--when
the only difference in most cases (except Shell) is octane rating.
So why do you think Shell is better than BP, or Chevron, or Texaco?
Remember Shell is the company than refined gasoline that destroyed
thousands of in tank fuel level sensors because of excess
sulfur....http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/food-stores/4482391-1.html
.

I'll bet you the "Shell" gas in Southeastern Virginia comes out of the
same refinery as the BP gas in Southeastern Virginia (although I am
sure the additive packages are different). GM, Toyota, BMW all
recommend the so called "Top Tier" gasolines, and Shell is one of the
providers of this type, but not the only. Ford recommends BP (but
doesn't require it). And remember that until Chevron took over Texaco,
Shell and Texaco gasoline was actually provided by two joint ventures
owned by Shell, Texaco,and Aramco (look up Equilon Enterprises and
Motiva).

Here are out of date description of Equilion and Motiva:

"EQUILON ENTERPRISES LLC. On January 15, 1998, Shell Oil and Texaco
Inc. ("Texaco") reached agreement on the formation and operational
start up, effective January 1, 1998, of Equilon Enterprises LLC
("Equilon"). Equilon is a joint venture which combines major elements
of both companies' western and midwestern United States refining and
marketing businesses and both companies' nationwide trading,
transportation and lubricants businesses."

"MOTIVA ENTERPRISES LLC. As reported in the Company's Current Report
on Form 8-K filed with the Commission on July 1, 1998, on July 1, 1998
Shell Oil, Texaco and Saudi Arabian Oil Company (Saudi Aramco) jointly
announced the formation and operational start-up of Motiva Enterprises
LLC (Motiva), a joint venture combining major elements of the three
companies' eastern and Gulf Coast United States refining and marketing
businesses, including assets previously held by Star Enterprise, a
partnership of corporate affiliates of Texaco and Saudi Aramco. Shell
Oil has 35 percent ownership of Motiva, and Texaco and Saudi Refining,
Inc., a corporate affiliate of Saudi Aramco, each have 32.5 percent
ownership of the company (such ownership to be subject to adjustment
in the future based on the performance of the assets)."

After Chevron purchased Texaco, they were forced to divest their
interest in Equilon and Motiva. Around here, that meant most Texaco
Stations became Shell Stations. The gas is still the same as before,
even the additive package (referred to before as "System 3" at Texaco
Stations).

I think you are fooling yourself if you think Shell gasoline is
"special," at least compared to other major brands. And remember,
Shell owns the company that markets "Slick 50." It is hard to trust a
company that sells that snake oil.

Ed
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Running grocery store 91 or 93 octane gas is probably worse for your ES
than running Shell 87.
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 16:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The marketing people have a vested interest in the buyer thinking that
he has something "better". And as we all know, public perception is
that "premium" gas must be better because they call it
"premium"--when
the only difference in most cases (except Shell) is octane rating.
So why do you think Shell is better than BP, or Chevron, or Texaco?
It is better than BP; I don't have Chevron or Texaco to compare to.
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 16:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
I'll bet you the "Shell" gas in Southeastern Virginia comes out of the
same refinery as the BP gas in Southeastern Virginia (although I am
sure the additive packages are different). GM, Toyota, BMW all
recommend the so called "Top Tier" gasolines, and Shell is one of the
providers of this type, but not the only.
While the gasoline probably did come out of a common tank somewhere,
I'll bet you that the Shell additive packages are way different than the
BP additive packages.
Mike hunt
2008-03-14 01:04:16 UTC
Permalink
You will win that bet! Current environmental laws do not allow different
type of gasoline to be stored or transported in the same container at
different times. I E Today a tank truck that loaded regular can not be
reloaded with premium etc, without first being purged and the purge medium
disposed of environmentally. When the seasons change from hot to cold for
example and the volatility must be changed every thing must be purged as
well. One of the reason gas cost so must today are those types of federal
regulations. Companies need to buy more trucks as a result. The same is
true of the gas lines. A company can not pump gasoline through a line that
is different than what was pumped before. The days of pumping a given
number of gallons of one brand, to a tank farm, and then a given number of
gallons of another brand, are long gone. In the old days they would simply
draw of the last, say 50K of the one brand and 50K gallon of the next brand,
or one octane rating and another, to purge the line. The draw off, known as
"plug" gas was sold of to independent stations.

Today all of the gasoline(s) pumped, designed to meet the environmental
requirements of a given area, or a state, are the same. The gasoline sold
at brand X station in one state or area is different than the gas sold by
brand X in another state or area, as well. The oil companies refer to it
as "57" varieties compliance. For example one does not get the same brand
X gas in Nevada as they do in California. Sunoco gas in New Jersey contains
15% ethanol by law and in Pa it does not necessarily contain ethanol.

Today the gasoline is drawn off at the different brand terminals, the
different additives, coloring and such for that brand are added at their
terminal giving them their "own" gasoline. After Katrina, and the loss of
production causing a shortage was ramping up the price of gas, President
Bush issued an order suspending "57" varieties compliance for two weeks
allowing any gas to be transported to any were and that brought the price
back down
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by C. E. White
I'll bet you the "Shell" gas in Southeastern Virginia comes out of the
same refinery as the BP gas in Southeastern Virginia (although I am
sure the additive packages are different). GM, Toyota, BMW all
recommend the so called "Top Tier" gasolines, and Shell is one of the
providers of this type, but not the only.
While the gasoline probably did come out of a common tank somewhere,
I'll bet you that the Shell additive packages are way different than the
BP additive packages.
Ray O
2008-03-14 02:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tegger
Post by C. E. White
news:e2d8408a-5775-4b11-802a-
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".
It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
I don't think the OP actually owns an Avalon. It appears to me that he
owns an ES350 and wants to know if the Avalon can run on regular,
which it can. He could have determined this from a number of on line
sources. One such is http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm .
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Different engine. Different car. Different market.
Different than what? Basically just a gussied up Camry at a luxury car
price. See http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/lexus-es350/.
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.
This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from the
Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
--
Tegger
I believe that the ignition timing advances more quickly on the Lexus
version of the engine.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
Tegger
2008-03-14 12:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray O
Post by Tegger
Yes, but the ES350's Owner's Manual specifies 91 octane, whereas the
Avalon's says 87 octane.
This suggests the Lexus's engine has some fundamental difference from
the Avalon's, such as a higher compression ratio.
I believe that the ignition timing advances more quickly on the Lexus
version of the engine.
That would /definitely/ account for a fuel difference. Combustion chamber
pressures would therefore rise much higher.
--
Tegger
Jeff Strickland
2008-03-13 16:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tegger
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
87 pump octane, otherwise known as "Regular gas".
It says so in the Owner's Manual that came in your glove box. This same
document will also tell you how to effectively operate such carnal
pleasures as the radio and power/heated seats. You have read this book, no?
She would probably have to buy the car before she will get the Owner's
Manual that goes with it.

Sure, she could buy the book first, but most of us buy the car and get the
book for free.
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 01:39:30 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Have you read the owner's manual to the ES350?

It probably states that you can run 87 octane fuel, but to expect lower
performance.

What you should do is run several tanks of 87 octane fuel (run two tanks
with Techron initially), and on the last couple of tanks calculate your
fuel cost per mile.

Then switch back to high octane fuel and calculate your fuel cost per
mile.

If 87 octane runs the car fine, and if your fuel cost per mile is lower,
and if the owner's manual says that it's OK to run 87 octane, then run
87 octane.
Bruce L. Bergman
2008-03-13 05:43:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:39:30 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article
Post by Jane
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Have you read the owner's manual to the ES350?
It probably states that you can run 87 octane fuel, but to expect lower
performance.
What you should do is run several tanks of 87 octane fuel (run two tanks
with Techron initially), and on the last couple of tanks calculate your
fuel cost per mile.
Then switch back to high octane fuel and calculate your fuel cost per
mile.
If 87 octane runs the car fine, and if your fuel cost per mile is lower,
and if the owner's manual says that it's OK to run 87 octane, then run
87 octane.
If the car manual says you have an option to use either Regular or
Premium "for added performance" you have to do the two tests, running
Regular and then Premium over at least a dozen tankfuls of fuel each,
and then do your math. To get consistent results try to use the
cruise control as much as possible, so it's driven the same both ways.

On some cars the extra performance from running Premium fuel
increases the fuel mileage enough (when driven the same) to actually
lower the cost per mile. On many cars it's a wash - the added mileage
just offsets the price difference but there's no added benefit for
normal city driving. And on a few it doesn't improve and you're
throwing away money.

But you will notice the improved performance during "spirited
driving" while running Premium in an engine that can take advantage of
it - stomp on the gas at the onramp meter stoplight, and you're doing
the speed limit before you hit the top of the ramp to merge into
traffic.

And it will fly up long steep mountainous highway grades a lot
faster when the timing isn't severely retarded to deal with Regular
fuel.

If the car "calls for Premium" and you run up and down big hills
regularly, tow trailers, have a camper on your truck, run around fully
loaded, get into stoplight drag-races regularly, or do other things
that would qualify as 'severe service' I would say to run Premium all
the time. Even though you /can/ use Regular doesn't mean you always
/should/, because in severe service no matter how far back the
computer retards the timing some low-level knocking is inevitable and
will cause long-term damage.

--<< Bruce >>--
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 11:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L. Bergman
If the car manual says you have an option to use either Regular or
Premium "for added performance" you have to do the two tests, running
Regular and then Premium over at least a dozen tankfuls of fuel each,
and then do your math. To get consistent results try to use the
cruise control as much as possible, so it's driven the same both ways.
I won't disagree, but if you're doing the measurements over a dozen
tanks per type of gas (make sure the engine is clean!), then the driving
styles will even out in the wash.
Ph@Boy
2008-03-13 02:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Just regular gas. 29 to 31 mpg in ours. Great car.
j***@hotmail.com
2008-03-13 03:48:07 UTC
Permalink
For those perspective buyers who do not yet own the car wikipedia
would be a good place to look, becuase Toyota's web site doesn't have
that info. The same engine in the Lexus ES needs 91 gas; the same
engine in the Avalon can use 87 gas but will develop less power.

Manufacturers usually specify high octane gas because in order for the
buyer to get rated horsepower that's what is needed. However, most
modern engines should work with all grades of gas. You'll just get
slightly less performance with lower octane. That said, I'm not sure
about some of the high injection pressure/high compression ratio
stratified charge injection engines popping up these days from
Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Avalon
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Ray O
2008-03-13 06:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Several people have suggested that you read the owner's manual, but I'm
assuming that you are considering purchasing an Avalon and so do not have
access to an owner's manual yet.

You can go to www.fueleconomy.gov and compare mileage estimates for multiple
vehicles. For example, a 2008 Avalon gets the same city mileage as a 2008
Lexus ES 350 but the Avalon gets 1 mpg better on the highway. Based on the
Avalon's recommended regular fuel at $3.23/gal and the ES's recommended
premium fuel at $3.44/gal, the Avalon's fuel cost to drive 15,000 miles is
$2,204 and the Lexus would cost $2,348, or $144 more, or $12.00 per month.
You have to decide if it is worth paying the extra fuel costs to drive the
Lexus vs. the Avalon.

Bruce's advice is, as usual, right on. I have tried regular and premium
fuel in my Lexus LS and have found that I get slightly worse MPG with
regular, so that the cost per mile is within pennies of each other, so I
just stick to premium. Even though it feels like I'm paying more for
premium fuel, it is a wash.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
JoeSpareBedroom
2008-03-13 12:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray O
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Several people have suggested that you read the owner's manual, but I'm
assuming that you are considering purchasing an Avalon and so do not have
access to an owner's manual yet.
The dealer will let them take a peek at a manual. If not, they're at the
wrong dealership.
Jane
2008-03-13 13:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
Just to clear things up:

We DON'T own an Avalon yet so I cannot read the Owner's Manual. I
tried to find one online but could not.

The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane
or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my
husband is a stickler for following the manual.

We test drove an Avalon a years ago. We also tested the Lexus ES300.
We were going to get the Avalon but the salesguy screwed us and we
walked out and got the Lexus. At the time the Avalon was on a par
with the Lexus. Even in price. Haven't tried one recently but I
assume it's at least as good if not better than it was.
JoeSpareBedroom
2008-03-13 13:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Can someone tell me what grade of fuel the 2008 Avalon requires.
We have a Lexus ES350 and it takes high test. It's a wonderful car
but it's costing us a fortune.
We DON'T own an Avalon yet so I cannot read the Owner's Manual. I
tried to find one online but could not.
The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane
or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my
husband is a stickler for following the manual.
We test drove an Avalon a years ago. We also tested the Lexus ES300.
We were going to get the Avalon but the salesguy screwed us and we
walked out and got the Lexus. At the time the Avalon was on a par
with the Lexus. Even in price. Haven't tried one recently but I
assume it's at least as good if not better than it was.
Go to the dealership and ask to see the manual. I did that before I bought
my Tacoma truck. It wasn't a problem.
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 14:11:14 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Jane
The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane
or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my
husband is a stickler for following the manual.
Read it carefully. Older ES manuals specifically state that using lower
octane fuel won't harm the engine.
Bruce L. Bergman
2008-03-13 15:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jane
The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane
or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my
husband is a stickler for following the manual.
Read it carefully. Older ES manuals specifically state that using lower
octane fuel won't harm the engine.
If it was truly restricted to "Premium ONLY!!", what happens if you
simply can't get Premium in someplace isolated like Death Valley or
Yellowstone because the only gas station ran out? You're going to
park the car, get a room, and wait overnight for the delivery truck?

What if they just got three feet of snow? Your small car or SUV can
easily get out by following the first plow, but it'll be several days
till the roads are totally plowed and dry enough to handle a rolling
bomb (gasoline tank truck) safely...

If you can't get Premium, you put in Regular. The computer is
constantly monitoring the knock sensors. If you put in Regular fuel,
it simply retards the ignition timing and/or cuts back the fuel shot
till the knocking stops. The effective power level is lower because
the retarded timing effectively gives the burning fuel less time to
push on the piston before the exhaust stroke starts.

--<< Bruce >>--
Elmo P. Shagnasty
2008-03-13 16:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L. Bergman
Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Post by Jane
The Manual for the Lexus ES350 clearly states that it uses "91 octane
or higher". While I am sure it would be fine with a lower grade my
husband is a stickler for following the manual.
Read it carefully. Older ES manuals specifically state that using lower
octane fuel won't harm the engine.
If it was truly restricted to "Premium ONLY!!", what happens if you
simply can't get Premium in someplace isolated like Death Valley or
Yellowstone because the only gas station ran out?
But for people who read the manual religiously and follow only the words
therein, if Toyota failed to put in the magical phrase "use of lower
octane fuel won't hurt the system, but you can expect lower performance"
(as they did in 1994), they're stuck.
Marge
2017-05-18 04:18:02 UTC
Permalink
replying to Jane, Marge wrote:
My 2006 took high test.

--
for full context, visit http://www.motorsforum.com/toyota/toyota-avalon-what-grade-of-fuel-157902-.htm
Wade Garrett
2017-05-18 13:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marge
My 2006 took high test.
Regular in both my 2000 and 2016.
--
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time or money
making it.
marco
2017-05-18 18:07:08 UTC
Permalink
.
regular in both my 2003 & 2014 Avalons

marc
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