Discussion:
NHTSA Report from 2008 on Lexus ES350 UA
(too old to reply)
Ed White
2010-03-15 21:13:43 UTC
Permalink
I have been hard on NHTSA adminstartion ecasue I feel they did not pay
enough attention to the Toyota UA complaints. However, I did come
across what I think was a very good report on an investigation of UA
concerns as they relate to the Lexus ES350. A copy is at
http://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/nhtsa%20final%20report%20VRTC%20EA07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf
.

Here is the sumary:

"4.0 Summary
• Mechanical interferences at the accelerator pedal revealed that the
accelerator pedal
assembly was easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather
floor mat if the
rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two
retaining hooks.

• A survey was sent to 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350
requesting
information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. Of the 600
people that
responded, 59 stated that they experienced unintended acceleration and
35
complained of pedal interference with the Lexus rubber all-weather
floor mats.

• With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system
cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced
significantly.
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.

• The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.

• Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.

Ed
dbu''
2010-03-15 23:17:34 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Ed White
I have been hard on NHTSA adminstartion ecasue I feel they did not pay
enough attention to the Toyota UA complaints. However, I did come
across what I think was a very good report on an investigation of UA
concerns as they relate to the Lexus ES350. A copy is at
http://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/nhtsa%20final%20report%20VRTC%20
EA07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf
.
"4.0 Summary
€ Mechanical interferences at the accelerator pedal revealed that the
accelerator pedal
assembly was easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather
floor mat if the
rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two
retaining hooks.
€ A survey was sent to 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350
requesting
information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. Of the 600
people that
responded, 59 stated that they experienced unintended acceleration and
35
complained of pedal interference with the Lexus rubber all-weather
floor mats.
€ With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system
cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced
significantly.
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
€ The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.
€ Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
Ed
Technology has surpassed operator skills and failure of operator to read
instruction books provided.
--
Mike Hunter
2010-03-16 16:34:49 UTC
Permalink
With the engine "throttle plate" open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system???

What throttle plate? The fuel system in that Lexus is a MEFI, with
individual cylinder injectors and coils.
Post by dbu''
In article
Post by Ed White
I have been hard on NHTSA adminstartion ecasue I feel they did not pay
enough attention to the Toyota UA complaints. However, I did come
across what I think was a very good report on an investigation of UA
concerns as they relate to the Lexus ES350. A copy is at
http://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/nhtsa%20final%20report%20VRTC%20
EA07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf
.
"4.0 Summary
€ Mechanical interferences at the accelerator pedal revealed that the
accelerator pedal
assembly was easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather
floor mat if the
rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two
retaining hooks.
€ A survey was sent to 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350
requesting
information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. Of the 600
people that
responded, 59 stated that they experienced unintended acceleration and
35
complained of pedal interference with the Lexus rubber all-weather
floor mats.
€ With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system
cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced
significantly.
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
€ The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.
€ Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
Ed
Technology has surpassed operator skills and failure of operator to read
instruction books provided.
--
C. E. White
2010-03-18 02:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Hunter
With the engine "throttle plate" open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system???
What throttle plate? The fuel system in that Lexus is a MEFI, with
individual cylinder injectors and coils.
Mike it is an ES350...essentially same V6 as a Camry. Nothing as fancy as
what you are talking about. It still has a throttle body (see
http://tinyurl.com/yzz98d8
for confirmation). Even with direct injection and individual coils, spark
ignition / gasoline engines still need some way of metering the air into the
engine. BMW has a system where they alter the valve lift to control air flow
instead of a throttle plate, but I don't believe any of the Lexus engines
are using that technology yet. Even the Lexus LFA super car still uses
throttle bodies (but 10 of them - one per cylinder).

Ed

S***@MonopolyISP.edu
2010-03-16 01:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?

As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
Post by Ed White
• The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.
They probably didn't know what ESC meant either.
Post by Ed White
• Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
More poor design.
C. E. White
2010-03-16 02:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
Electronic Stability Control. NHTSA has mandated that all light vehicles
will have ESC. The ESC implementation in the ES350 modulates the throttle to
help improve vehicle stability during extreme maneuvers (it also can
selectively apply brakes using the ABS system). The point of the statement
was that during a runaway, an extreme maneuver would engage the ESC
functions. This would module the throttle and therefore restore engine
vacuum which would restore full brake booster power, at least temporarily.
....
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
. The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that would
shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times over a short
period (this would be in addition to the original "push it for 3 sec" shut
down mode). The feeling is that this is what some one might do in a panic
situation - partucalurly some one not familar with the car (or someone wo
didn't bother to read the manual).
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
They probably didn't know what ESC meant either.
They don't need to know what it means, it is fully automatic.
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
. Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
More poor design.
I griped about the Toyota shifter gate design philosophy a couple of years
back when my SO first got her RAV4. It is ridiculously over complicated.
I've gotten used to it, but it is still a bad design. I can see where a
driver unfamiliar with the design could have problems during a stressful
event.

Ed
Obveeus
2010-03-16 12:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that would
shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times over a short
period (this would be in addition to the original "push it for 3 sec" shut
down mode). The feeling is that this is what some one might do in a panic
situation - partucalurly some one not familar with the car (or someone wo
didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Post by C. E. White
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
They probably didn't know what ESC meant either.
They don't need to know what it means, it is fully automatic.
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
. Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
More poor design.
I griped about the Toyota shifter gate design philosophy a couple of years
back when my SO first got her RAV4. It is ridiculously over complicated.
I've gotten used to it, but it is still a bad design. I can see where a
driver unfamiliar with the design could have problems during a stressful
event.
This certainly isn't a problem for the Prius, though, as its shirfter is as
simplistic as could be designed. Basically: Drive-Neutral-Reverse.
Still, even with the stairstep shifter in the referenced Lexus, wouldn't any
shift at all result in slowing the car down? Shift one way from Drive and
you get lower gearing which would slow the car down and shift the other way
from Drive and you get Neutral. The car won't let a person shift into
Reverse while moving, so the shifter, even with the stairstep complexity,
still seems foolproof in that any shift away from Drive would slow/stop the
car.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 12:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times over a
short period (this would be in addition to the original "push it for 3
sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some one might do
in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not familar with the car (or
someone wo didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they arrive at
their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when the trip's over
and shut themselves off?
Obveeus
2010-03-16 13:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times over
a short period (this would be in addition to the original "push it for 3
sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some one might do
in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not familar with the car
(or someone wo didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they arrive at
their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when the trip's over
and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even after they
have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold the 'off' power
button down for 3 seconds.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 13:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times over
a short period (this would be in addition to the original "push it for
3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some one might
do in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not familar with the
car (or someone wo didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they arrive
at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when the trip's
over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even after
they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold the 'off'
power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
Obveeus
2010-03-16 13:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times
over a short period (this would be in addition to the original "push
it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some
one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not familar
with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they arrive
at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when the trip's
over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even after
they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold the 'off'
power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since both
would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.

In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that people
know how to use a feature that they have never had to use before (emergency
shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' that they will remember
to do it while in a panic situation.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 13:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times
over a short period (this would be in addition to the original "push
it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some
one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not familar
with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they arrive
at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when the trip's
over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even after
they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold the 'off'
power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since both
would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.
In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that people
know how to use a feature that they have never had to use before
(emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' that they
will remember to do it while in a panic situation.
Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one might
stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in those
situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip is, in
fact, over?
Obveeus
2010-03-16 13:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy that
would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple times
over a short period (this would be in addition to the original "push
it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that this is what some
one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly some one not
familar with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to read the
manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they
arrive at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when
the trip's over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even after
they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold the
'off' power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since both
would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.
In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that people
know how to use a feature that they have never had to use before
(emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' that they
will remember to do it while in a panic situation.
Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one might
stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in those
situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip is, in
fact, over?
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit. You are the guy making fun of people for
not reading manuals, right?
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 13:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy
that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple
times over a short period (this would be in addition to the
original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that
this is what some one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly
some one not familar with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to
read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they
arrive at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when
the trip's over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even
after they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold
the 'off' power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since both
would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.
In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that people
know how to use a feature that they have never had to use before
(emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' that
they will remember to do it while in a panic situation.
Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one might
stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in those
situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip is, in
fact, over?
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
That's what I just said.
Post by Obveeus
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit.
That makes you and I exactly equal in this discussion.
Post by Obveeus
You are the guy making fun of people for not reading manuals, right?
That's right. But just like you, I'm guessing. My guess is that with a
Prius, there's a difference between the following situations:

1) In PARK, stopped at a drive-up ATM.
2) Done with the car, trip over.

In situation #2, I'm guessing that the driver uses the OFF button, which
means that the driver already knows what that button does and has no need to
read the manual.
Obveeus
2010-03-16 14:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy
that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple
times over a short period (this would be in addition to the
original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that
this is what some one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly
some one not familar with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to
read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they
arrive at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when
the trip's over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even
after they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold
the 'off' power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since
both would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.
In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that
people know how to use a feature that they have never had to use before
(emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' that
they will remember to do it while in a panic situation.
Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one
might stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in
those situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip
is, in fact, over?
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
That's what I just said.
No, it isn't.
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit.
That makes you and I exactly equal in this discussion.
Post by Obveeus
You are the guy making fun of people for not reading manuals, right?
That's right. But just like you, I'm guessing. My guess is that with a
1) In PARK, stopped at a drive-up ATM.
2) Done with the car, trip over.
Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button.
Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off)
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
In situation #2, I'm guessing that the driver uses the OFF button, which
means that the driver already knows what that button does and has no need
to read the manual.
The operation of the button is different when in park (or stopped) than it
is when the car is moving at speed. The need to *hold the button down* for
3+ seconds is a 'feature' for the at speed situation, right?
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 14:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy
that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple
times over a short period (this would be in addition to the
original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that
this is what some one might do in a panic situation -
partucalurly some one not familar with the car (or someone wo
didn't bother to read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they
arrive at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when
the trip's over and shut themselves off?
Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even
after they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold
the 'off' power button down for 3 seconds.
Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups.
I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since
both would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation.
In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that
people know how to use a feature that they have never had to use
before (emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming'
that they will remember to do it while in a panic situation.
Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one
might stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in
those situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip
is, in fact, over?
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
That's what I just said.
No, it isn't.
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit.
That makes you and I exactly equal in this discussion.
Post by Obveeus
You are the guy making fun of people for not reading manuals, right?
That's right. But just like you, I'm guessing. My guess is that with a
1) In PARK, stopped at a drive-up ATM.
2) Done with the car, trip over.
Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button.
Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off)
There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted into
neutral in emergency situations.
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
In situation #2, I'm guessing that the driver uses the OFF button, which
means that the driver already knows what that button does and has no need
to read the manual.
The operation of the button is different when in park (or stopped) than it
is when the car is moving at speed. The need to *hold the button down*
for 3+ seconds is a 'feature' for the at speed situation, right?
Do you own one of these cars?
Obveeus
2010-03-16 16:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button.
Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off)
There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted into
neutral in emergency situations.
Having a 'park' button doesn't negate having a shifter than can be put in
neutral. I have been trying to help you to improve your trolling to a level
where it offers some level of logic and credibility, but I can't do all the
work for you. You still have to attempt to make sense.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 16:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button.
Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off)
There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted
into neutral in emergency situations.
Having a 'park' button doesn't negate having a shifter than can be put in
neutral. I have been trying to help you to improve your trolling to a
level where it offers some level of logic and credibility, but I can't do
all the work for you. You still have to attempt to make sense.
Do you own a Prius?
Conscience
2010-03-16 16:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Obveeus
Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button.
Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off)
There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted into
neutral in emergency situations.
Having a 'park' button doesn't negate having a shifter than can be put in
neutral. I have been trying to help you to improve your trolling to a level
where it offers some level of logic and credibility, but I can't do all the
work for you. You still have to attempt to make sense.
When pigs can fly...
Conscience
2010-03-16 14:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit. You are the guy making fun of people for
not reading manuals, right?
You're relatively new here. First lesson when dealing with this guy is
that he's incapable of anything more than what passes for thought
processing on a single plane. Logic is a foreign concept to the
arschloch.

Even then, he'll fumble along, changing the context, running off on
irrelevant tangents having nothing whatsoever to do with the original
subject.

Just an FYI.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 14:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conscience
Post by Obveeus
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit. You are the guy making fun of people for
not reading manuals, right?
You're relatively new here. First lesson when dealing with this guy is
that he's incapable of anything more than what passes for thought
processing on a single plane. Logic is a foreign concept to the
arschloch.
Even then, he'll fumble along, changing the context, running off on
irrelevant tangents having nothing whatsoever to do with the original
subject.
Just an FYI.
OK, meat sock: Maybe YOU would like to explain the operation of a Prius in
great detail.
Scott in Florida
2010-03-16 18:40:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:10:30 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Conscience
Post by Obveeus
You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right?
Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is
operated at least a little bit. You are the guy making fun of people for
not reading manuals, right?
You're relatively new here. First lesson when dealing with this guy is
that he's incapable of anything more than what passes for thought
processing on a single plane. Logic is a foreign concept to the
arschloch.
Even then, he'll fumble along, changing the context, running off on
irrelevant tangents having nothing whatsoever to do with the original
subject.
Just an FYI.
OK, meat sock: Maybe YOU would like to explain the operation of a Prius in
great detail.


Thanks to a fellow on this ng....
--
Scott in Florida
Daniel who wants to know
2010-03-18 02:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
OK, meat sock: Maybe YOU would like to explain the operation of a Prius in
great detail.
(assuming the car has SKS)
OK, you get in and press and hold the brake pedal firmly, while still
holding the brake pedal you press the power button and then put on your
seatbelt. Once the car beeps and the READY indicator on the cluster lights
up next to the digital speedometer the car can be driven. Move the joystick
to the left then down and the indicator on the cluster will change from "P"
being highlighted to "D" and the car is in drive, left and up and it is in
reverse, straight left and hold for 1 second and it is in neutral. While in
drive straight down is B mode which is engine braking similar to
downshifting a conventional car. All positions have a corresponding letter
that gets highlighted in the cluster, and releasing the joystick from any
position results in the lever springing back to a rest position.

Once you arrive at the ATM, your house, or whatever, if you want to park but
leave the car on press the park button above the joystick. If you want to
power the car off just press power as there is no need to press park first
because the car automatically engages the parking pawl. In fact if you watch
the cluster closely when pressing the power button you see the highlighted
letter switch to P just before the cluster shuts off.

Without SKS you have to insert the FOB in the slot in the dash before the
power button will respond to power on the car.
Reverse also has a beeper function that sounds similar to the one on a
forklift or big truck but as it is generated by the audio system amp and
comes through the speakers it can only be heard inside the car.


SKS= Smart Key System also known as Smart Entry and Smart Start
C. E. White
2010-03-16 16:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by C. E. White
I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy
that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple
times over a short period (this would be in addition to the
original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that
this is what some one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly
some one not familar with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to
read the manual).
That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea.
Post by C. E. White
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
They probably didn't know what ESC meant either.
They don't need to know what it means, it is fully automatic.
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
. Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to
disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
More poor design.
I griped about the Toyota shifter gate design philosophy a couple
of years back when my SO first got her RAV4. It is ridiculously
over complicated. I've gotten used to it, but it is still a bad
design. I can see where a driver unfamiliar with the design could
have problems during a stressful event.
This certainly isn't a problem for the Prius, though, as its
Drive-Neutral-Reverse.
Still, even with the stairstep shifter in the referenced Lexus,
wouldn't any shift at all result in slowing the car down? Shift one
way from Drive and you get lower gearing which would slow the car
down and shift the other way from Drive and you get Neutral. The
car won't let a person shift into Reverse while moving, so the
shifter, even with the stairstep complexity, still seems foolproof
in that any shift away from Drive would slow/stop the car.
I have not driven a Lexus, so I don't know exactly how they are gated.
For the RAV4s and Highlanders I have driven, once you have gotten to
neutral, you move the shift level straight down from neutral to "D" (D
is what some call over drive). As long as you don't do anything else,
then you can just bump it back up into neutral. However, once in "D"
you can move the shifter to the left to disengage overdrive. If you
are in this position, then you have to move the lever back to the
right before you move the lever up into neutral. I can see how someone
in a panic situation might grasp the shifter and inadvertently move it
to the left and then get confused when it would not go straight back
to neutral. I suppose some Toyotas also have the optional man-u-matic
postion where you can bump the lever up and down to change gears. If
so, I can see where that might confuse things in a panic situation as
well.

The Prius is completely different. It jsut has forward, neutral, and
reverse. I can't see how it would be confusing to anyone.

Ed
Conscience
2010-03-16 16:19:04 UTC
Permalink
The Prius is completely different. It just has forward, neutral, and
reverse. I can't see how it would be confusing to anyone.
Observe how some people push a supermarket shopping cart.

Then extrapolate.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 16:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conscience
The Prius is completely different. It just has forward, neutral, and
reverse. I can't see how it would be confusing to anyone.
Observe how some people push a supermarket shopping cart.
Then extrapolate.
You're a funny old person. You believe that by commenting on the type of car
someone drives, you'll compensate for your own "man issues". But hey - it's
harmless. I hope it makes you feel better.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 02:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Scott in Florida
2010-03-16 18:44:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Conscience
2010-03-16 18:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Florida
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
The only thing he's ever tried to manage was Mary Palmer and her five sisters.

Even THEY rejected him.

Poor wizard. No more Dorothy.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 18:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Scott in Florida
2010-03-16 21:56:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is that I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.

You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 22:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is that I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
Scott in Florida
2010-03-16 22:19:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:00:54 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is that I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
That is NOT what you said.

Tell us again about your 'trip' to Taiwan.....
--
Scott in Florida
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 22:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:00:54 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is that I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
That is NOT what you said.
Tell us again about your 'trip' to Taiwan.....
--
Scott in Florida
Go back to sleep, grandpa.
Scott in Florida
2010-03-16 23:22:24 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:23:49 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:00:54 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users, and if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is that I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
That is NOT what you said.
Tell us again about your 'trip' to Taiwan.....
--
Scott in Florida
Go back to sleep, grandpa.
game set match...again....
--
Scott in Florida
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 23:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:23:49 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:00:54 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster,
providing
a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users,
and
if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is
that
I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
That is NOT what you said.
Tell us again about your 'trip' to Taiwan.....
--
Scott in Florida
Go back to sleep, grandpa.
game set match...again....
--
Scott in Florida
You've never managed a hot dog wagon, pops. Fugettabout programmers.
dbu''
2010-03-17 01:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:23:49 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:00:54 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:39 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by Scott in Florida
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:37:16 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Post by S***@MonopolyISP.edu
Post by Ed White
"4.0 Summary
<snip>
Post by Ed White
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster,
providing
a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
What is ESC? "Escape" perhaps?
As an aside I was looking up the web for the nearest Walgreens to send
some photos to and the closest one was "SEC of [Name of road], [town],
[Zip]. What's "SEC"? The only thing I know with those initials is the
Securities and Exchange Commission and I doubt they have offices in
the local Walgreens, nor even a branch at the address. I asked the
manager at the store. He didn't know either but said he'd ask the
district supervisor. Finally by checking up on all the Walgreens in
the area I worked out what it was: South East Corner. For the dirtbag
programmer/analyst/web designer with the bull neck, coke bottle
glasses, and the pizza stains on his shirt, it's probably obvious,
just not to all normal people. (If you get the idea I don't like
computer people you'd be right. I used to be in the business.)
This is why the user interface should ALWAYS be reviewed by users,
and
if
the programmer objects, he/she should be muzzled and locked in a closet.
Obviously you have never managed a group of programmers...
--
Scott in Florida
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
Well the difference between you and me (actually there are MANY) is
that
I
HAVE managed programmers (successfully) and I HAVE been to Taiwan.
You will now move off the subject....
--
Scott in Florida
You have a reading disability. In my previous message, I taught you that I
*did* manage programmers successfully. Among other things, that is defined
as "Keeping them away from designing the user interface." It's not their
job.
That is NOT what you said.
Tell us again about your 'trip' to Taiwan.....
--
Scott in Florida
Go back to sleep, grandpa.
game set match...again....
--
Scott in Florida
You've never managed a hot dog wagon, pops. Fugettabout programmers.
So tell us what you know about programming other than the kind you do to
play in your nightly gig at the local beer joint.
--
Jeff Strickland
2010-03-16 22:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
You are full of crap.

Software companies from China might fit the profile, but any good software
company spends loads of money collecting user requirements and performing
user testing.

You bought a piece-of-crap software application once, and extrapolate from
the expereince that all companies build stuff like that.

Sounds alot like, "talking on the phone makes a driver incompetent." You
pull crap out of your ass and seem amazed at the accomplishment.
JoeSpareBedroom
2010-03-16 22:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by JoeSpareBedroom
Actually, I have. Programmers should NEVER be in charge of designing the
user interface. But many corporations don't feel like budgeting for
requirements gathering and user testing.
You are full of crap.
Software companies from China might fit the profile, but any good software
company spends loads of money collecting user requirements and performing
user testing.
You bought a piece-of-crap software application once, and extrapolate from
the expereince that all companies build stuff like that.
There's an awful lot of non-Chinese software which gets lousy reviews due to
poor user interface design. Web sites, too, since many now qualify as
software. You would do well to read this book, but you won't. You're only
interested in things you already know.

http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-2-0-Essentials-Interaction/dp/0764526413
jim beam
2010-03-16 04:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed White
I have been hard on NHTSA adminstartion ecasue I feel they did not pay
enough attention to the Toyota UA complaints. However, I did come
across what I think was a very good report on an investigation of UA
concerns as they relate to the Lexus ES350. A copy is at
http://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/nhtsa%20final%20report%20VRTC%20EA07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf
.
"4.0 Summary
� Mechanical interferences at the accelerator pedal revealed that the
accelerator pedal
assembly was easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather
floor mat if the
rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two
retaining hooks.
� A survey was sent to 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350
requesting
information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. Of the 600
people that
responded, 59 stated that they experienced unintended acceleration and
35
complained of pedal interference with the Lexus rubber all-weather
floor mats.
� With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the
braking system
cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced
significantly.
o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the
vehicle,
compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally.
o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a
significant
increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases.
� The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of
the ignition button
is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found
themselves unable
to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion.
� Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated
shift pattern was
not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage
the engine
from the drive wheels.
Ed
observe: the official line of g.m. [as voiced by ed the astroturfer
masquerading as a "concerned citizen"] has had to be moderated due to
"unintended consequences".

previously being too freakin' retarded to realize that they were
shooting themselves in the foot with their anti-toyota campaign, and the
massive nhtsa clampdown that would have resulted affecting g.m.'s own
dismal creations, g.m. are having to back away from outright attack to
"moderated concern".

like we really couldn't see this coming ed - we really couldn't!
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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